Overlay

Liam (00:00)
Hello and welcome to episode number six of the Official Layers podcast overlay. I'm the founder of Layers, Liam McCabe.

Reijo (00:07)
And I'm Reijo, a designer and illustrator.

Liam (00:11)
we get started if you're looking to support layers or the overlay podcast then you can join layers plus today and gain access to additional features such as analytics scheduling profile customization and more overlay listeners can also get a 10 % discount off their annual plan using the code overlay10 and now on with the show how's it going right we've been done had a good couple of weeks how long has it been it's a couple of weeks right

Reijo (00:36)
A couple of weeks, I think so. Yeah, it's been, I've been good. I've been getting through the bit of burnout. I feel like I'm much better now, but yeah.

Liam (00:47)
Oh no. Have you actually burnt out or are you almost burnt out?

Reijo (00:52)
I feel like I caught it at the tail end, just before it got really bad. I feel like I realized it at the right time. Or well, I should have realized much, much earlier. But I feel like I managed to mitigate some of the damage, I feel.

Liam (01:15)
That sounds good though. It seems like the thing that people most say that you should try and do is be aware. So you were clearly aware of it happening and you realized just before it came crumbling.

Reijo (01:26)
Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But like, I feel like the realization came, but the realization came a little too late. And at a moment where I had like, whether I realized it or not, it didn't matter. Like I still had stuff to do. So it was, I didn't have the option to not to sort of drop everything immediately at once. So.

Liam (01:49)
Hmm.

Reijo (02:00)
How about you? Have you dealt with burnout?

Liam (02:05)
Yeah, you, uh, you dropped out for a sec there, but, uh, it should be fine. It should be fine. Yeah, you're back. Um, I, yeah, I think I have a couple of times, two or three times in the past with, um, some rather big client projects, uh, that we had at Code and Wonder. And, um, it was usually just me doing almost everything.

Reijo (02:08)
Oh no, am I back?

Yeah?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Liam (02:35)
similar to layers, so like designing, building, and deadlines were usually very tight and yeah as projects go on, as code bases grow, it can become very tricky, especially with things that you don't necessarily anticipate, especially with code, you run into bugs or...

Reijo (02:54)
Mm -hmm.

Liam (03:03)
issues that you've just never experienced before and you don't necessarily know why they're happening. And it's like, how the hell do I fix this? It's going to take time just to research how to fix it. Right. And you don't necessarily quote for that time. A lot of times we, a lot of times we couldn't quote for that, like that contingency time, because, um, yeah, a lot of, a lot of, a lot of clients would have like smallish budgets. Um, a lot of the times the.

Reijo (03:08)
Yeah.

Yes.

Yes.

Mm -hmm.

Liam (03:31)
They might be founders or just people with an idea. So rather than big corporations with these big budgets. So it's like, Oh, this would be a great fun project. Um, but yeah, the budget would be tight. So that just puts a strain on everything else. Um, and yeah, I guess I have got, I guess I have got very close like yourself. I wouldn't say I have. Burn out. Cause I think to me that that feels like.

Reijo (03:44)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Liam (04:00)
just completely losing it. Like you can't get up in the morning. But I have experienced the constant brain fog. Well, this is burnout to me anyway. I've experienced the constant brain fog, the stress. You're like, I can't do this. The lack of hope and despair creeping in. You're like, holy shit, this is too much.

Reijo (04:06)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But...

Yeah?

Liam (04:29)
What is it to you?

Reijo (04:32)
That is a good question. I feel like...

It's difficult. Like it doesn't take away my sort of the joy to make things or to create things. That's still there. Because I still want to, even though I feel really shit, I still want to make things. But...

it just slows every part of the process down a lot. Like even just communicating with people slows down a lot. Like I have to deeply think about just fucking work myself up to answer emails. Just everything slows, slows down a lot. Like every everything complicated sort of gets much more complicated. I still want to make but it's just it's more of a it's more of an uphill battle. But I feel like if I

Liam (05:34)
Yeah.

Reijo (05:35)
If I, and I don't know, I don't know how to predict it. I feel like I'm going to keep stepping into the same trap in some way. I'll just get better at recognizing it, I feel. And, or like realizing it at the more opportune time to say, Hey, maybe I should, you know, take the foot off the gas for a second.

Liam (06:02)
Yeah, I think the more you get closer to it, the more you can anticipate it. But yeah, you have a little inkling. It's like, oh, this is getting a bit much right now. I need to make some changes.

Reijo (06:17)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And not even like, not even like, not even just you realizing within yourself that, ah, shit, I might be burning out. You might even realize some patterns that you're doing beforehand that you know will lead to burnout, but you're still doing them. And then you realize, ah, well, if I'm doing this many projects at the same time with this tight of a deadline,

Liam (06:43)
Hmm.

Reijo (06:50)
That led to burnout before. I don't think the result is going to be different this time.

Liam (06:54)
Yes.

Yep, even though you think you're like, you're like, Oh, yeah, I can do this and that's all right. Fine. It's fine.

Reijo (07:02)
Yeah, I can do it. It'll be fine. It'll be fine. It won't be.

Liam (07:06)
There's a little voice in the side of your head that is like Rayo. Don't you remember last year or the year before that or the year before?

Reijo (07:13)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Liam (07:18)
I also get in like a cyclical negativity state where like I'm, I just can't figure out how to fix something. And I'm like, you just can't do it then you're never going to be able to do it. You can't fix this. And it's like this constant. It's a, it's a, it's just adding to the battle. You know, you're like, this, this, this negativity in my head isn't helping me solve this problem. But I.

Reijo (07:38)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%.

Liam (07:47)
But I think I tell you what did actually solve a lot of that is, um, I did start going, well, it's just basic things, really just, uh, exercising a bit more and trying to eat, eat better. Um, exercising definitely. Cause I go to the gym at lunchtime now and that definitely helps clear my head a little. I feel like, uh, it just adds a bit more oxygen to the brain, makes the brain function a little bit more and like gives, gives me a step back.

Reijo (07:58)
Yes. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Liam (08:16)
So I guess whatever, whatever that is to anyone else, once you discover that, yeah, make use of it.

Reijo (08:16)
I feel like...

Yeah. Yeah.

100 % I feel like I'm not I used to be a morning person. I'm not a morning person anymore I'd like to be a morning person again, but that's a different that's different topic. I feel like I Go to the gym like two to three times a week and I always go with a personal trainer early in the morning Because I know like I've made this deal with the personal trainer

She's gonna be there like 8 o 'clock. I have no way of getting out of this unless I'm almost dead. There's no way I'm avoiding this so that's been like a linchpin in my schedule of Trying to keep things on track in general like feeling my life is going in the right direction in general just to have that like that one Yeah, that I cannot avoid. Yeah

Liam (09:10)
Mm.

routine. That accountability.

Reijo (09:20)
Because if I didn't have a personal trainer to meet up with, I would probably argue with myself like 50 % of the time. So, I'll do it later. Like I know how that goes. So I need that.

Liam (09:29)
Yeah, I think, I think a lot of, yeah, a lot of the time it is just the, uh, the accountability, right? Like having, having an extra, uh, person keeping, keeping, keeping track on you, motivating you, or trying to motivate you, discipline you. That's why I like at the gym, I don't necessarily, um, do free weights a lot. I do, um, these classes. So you're kind of surrounded by other people.

Reijo (09:40)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh yeah.

Liam (09:59)
Which does really motivate me and the classes themselves are obviously planned as well. Even if I was given the same plan, I probably wouldn't do it as well as when I'm in the class. Because when you're in the class you're surrounded by people who are not slowing down, they're not taking short breaks, they're just doing it. Whereas if I was doing it on my own I'd be like taking...

Reijo (10:06)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Liam (10:27)
longer breaks each time I'd be like, I'll do less.

Reijo (10:28)
Yeah. Yeah. I feel I understand what you mean, but I've like every time, not every, not every time, but sometimes in the morning when I go to the gym, there's the gym, I frequent there's, there's the gym part of it. And there's like the glasses part of it. Right. And sometimes there's a class ongoing or multiple classes ongoing when I get to the gym and I, I don't even have to walk in the door. Like I can hear it from across the gym and feel like.

Liam (10:46)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Reijo (10:58)
This is like an insult on my senses. I'm barely awake. This is the exact opposite of what I want. People screaming, super loud music. Holy shit.

Liam (11:02)
Hahaha.

Yeah

Yeah. I understand that there are there are classes at my gym that start at like six or whatever. And I'm like, if I was if I was to do my class at six, I'd be the same. I'd be like, turn it down. Stop, stop, stop shouting at me. Jesus. But some people like you say, are just warning people when they they could get up at like five or six.

Reijo (11:20)
Yeah, and there's...

right right right and there's they're full of people

Yeah, yeah. So.

Liam (11:38)
But I do envy those people though, because I do really like the mornings when I do wake up early, because it's so quiet, it's so peaceful, you feel like you've got a certain clarity, a certain space to get stuff done, whatever it needs to be. Yeah, those three, four hours or whatever.

Reijo (11:41)
Right?

Right? I love it.

Yeah, yeah. I feel like I feel like what like you can do a lot of good work. Yeah. I feel like you can do a lot of good work in the mornings or in the evenings. But I feel like mornings have that sort of naive promise to them. Like the day is still ahead of you. You know, you just generally feel more optimistic about it.

Liam (12:19)
Mm.

Yeah.

Reijo (12:23)
I like mornings more even though I don't wake up too early.

Liam (12:27)
Especially if the weather is good. Which a lot of the times, even in England, the weather can be better in the morning. I don't know why. Maybe a pressure thing, but it's usually a bit clearer. It's a bit sunnier. Anyway, I was thinking... Well, we normally have a...

Reijo (12:31)
Yes.

Yeah.

This is a temperature thing then.

Yeah.

Huh.

Liam (12:55)
a brief agenda, and we usually talk about layers for a bit. The past few episodes we've had a guest, we've had Tatiana on, which has been great. Talked about a lot of things. And in the second part too, we addressed a lot of issues with existing design communities that we're basically trying to address with layers, which is good, so you should check those out.

But in the meantime, what has been happening with layers? Well, I was basically looking at the deploy history and it had been like two months since I deployed anything and I was trying to work out what the hell I've been doing. It's usually, because usually I'm usually I'm working on something, I'm building something and deploying. And I think, I think it was basically, I was...

doing more like businessy type stuff. I think I must have been perhaps selling ads or just doing support, that type of stuff. Cause there's quite a few ads on the platform at the moment. But maybe it's also support. Like I get more and more emails every other month asking.

Reijo (13:58)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Liam (14:23)
with issues with their accounts or just asking you about things. Um, and then maybe it's, uh, I mean, the past, the past week or two, I've been, I've started looking for a bit of cash, a bit of funding. So that's also taking up my time, um, business wise, legal wise, uh, social wise. Um, cause I was, I was, I was unsure about.

Reijo (14:39)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Liam (14:52)
actually doing it, but I put out, put out a little tweet. I did it. Oh, we did the, did, did an April fools saying we sold to Adobe, which I feel like half the people believed it and half the people didn't.

Reijo (15:01)
Yeah. Yeah.

This is... Yeah, I feel like people who are in the layers community, at least in some way, either they have an account or they're in the Discord or they've been frequenting the platform, they wouldn't believe it. However, people who are still in the design communities and are aware of layers, they are probably more...

Liam (15:26)
Hmm.

Reijo (15:36)
susceptible to believing it, I think. It's a ridiculous claim, but I think...

Liam (15:42)
Whoa, whoa, whoa. It's not that ridiculous, Ryo. Come on. It's possible.

Reijo (15:46)
Given the history of acquisitions that Adobe has made or tried to make, it's not that outlandish either. It's a believable lie that somebody showed up with a fat check and they were like, ah, okay.

Liam (15:58)
But.

Yeah, I mean, layers is still very small. I think it'd be very unlikely for anything like that to happen. Although I think maybe there have been a couple of potential acquisition offers in the past. I can think of one which was probably just buying layers outright, and then there was another one which was more of like a partnership to...

Reijo (16:30)
Yeah.

Liam (16:38)
kind of like start it again, almost rebuild it from scratch, start a new company. Yeah, yeah, it was quite fun. It was quite fun seeing people believe it basically, but also kind of validating because it suggests that, oh yeah, I could believe that. It's on a trajectory where it seems to be delivering. And so,

Reijo (16:45)
Yeah.

That is true.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is true.

Liam (17:08)
Some people think that the bigger companies would be interested.

Reijo (17:13)
Yeah. Yeah. But let's play the devil's advocate here for five more minutes. What do you think they would change if they would buy layers? Like, what do you think would happen to the product?

Liam (17:27)
Uh yeah, interesting question. What would they do?

I don't know. I really don't know.

Maybe they'd push merge it into Behance, right? Why would they would they want to?

Reijo (17:47)
Yeah, that was my bad as well. They'd either kill it or merge it two behance, I think, just to clear the way from any competition.

Liam (18:00)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, you could just, you could just kill it. Although I'm not sure. I mean, not that it matters, but I'm not sure how frowned upon that would be, but you can just say you're acqui hiring the company and you're bringing on the team and then not doing anything right. The press is there, but then you just kill it. That happens all the time, right? Just destroying the competition by acquiring them or acqui hiring them.

Reijo (18:15)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. So.

Liam (18:30)
We're merging everyone in, honest. But yeah, how did we get onto that? April Fools.

What we were discussing, I was going to say something before April Fools was what's new with layers, we did the April Fools...

Reijo (18:52)
Well, yeah, you had the feedback session.

Liam (18:58)
Yeah, it still wasn't that, but maybe it will come to me and I'll think I'll bring it up later. But yeah, we had a feedback session yesterday, which has been in the pipeline for a while. Like I've been talking to one of our amazing advertisers, Significa for a while now about things, how we can collaborate and partner and stuff like that. And one of them was a feedback session. They could, they could,

offer their services as experienced agency. We've got lots of amazing designers and the designers when they've got a bit of time, they can just leave some feedback on layers specifically in the work in progress hub. So yeah, I thought it would be a good way of trying to encourage feedback.

Reijo (19:34)
Yeah.

Liam (19:57)
collaborate with companies in the community and provide some value from both our sides basically. Layers providing platform, Significa providing the feedback and actually managed to time it with the relaunch of annotations. So back in the day I did actually launch annotations for layers and then I had

Reijo (20:20)
Yes!

Liam (20:27)
whatever reason I had to remove them temporarily let's say although it's been a while but now they are back yeah so they they work similarly to a lot of design tools how you'd expect Figma, Sketch so it basically just means it's easier to leave feedback

Reijo (20:33)
Now they're back.

Liam (20:55)
because it adds immediate context, especially for these feedback sessions. It becomes a bit silly if you have to describe what you're giving feedback on. Like the button in the top right next to the other button... yeah make that red. You no longer have to describe it, you can just click on the layer, annotate it, leave the comment like that.

Reijo (20:58)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Liam (21:23)
And I've always wondered why the other platforms haven't necessarily done that. But yeah, I'm glad it's back. And I think the initial test with Significa went really well. It was a very early implementation, but I think they still managed to leave quite a few comments and annotations. It seems to work nicely, which I'm very pleased about, really.

Reijo (21:48)
Nice.

You tend to, like with the product hunt, with the product hunt, this reminds me of the quick upgrade you made during the product launch as well. You tend to want to have an event and then make it more interesting for yourself by deploying something new or breaking something or doing something interesting with it.

Liam (22:19)
Thank you.

Reijo (22:20)
while there's a lot of attention on the platform at the same time.

Liam (22:24)
That is great planning there, right bro? Adding more pressure. Yes, great idea. I think I do like...

Reijo (22:28)
hahahaha

Yeah. Well, some people work well under pressure.

Liam (22:37)
Yeah, I think I partly do. I do like tying like a feature launch with some sort of event because it just gives me a deadline, right? Like, especially with this feedback session, I think I delayed it once, but then this time it obviously went ahead. But I had it in my mind that I wanted annotations live for this feedback session. And I'm glad I did because it basically just

Reijo (22:46)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Liam (23:06)
motivated me to get it done, right? And it can be quite hard, quite difficult to sometimes self motivate on specific things I say. I'm not, I have no issue with motivation on the entire platform because I've just got so many ideas, but actually finishing a specific feature can be sometimes difficult. I might look at another feature or something like that.

Reijo (23:08)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Liam (23:36)
especially bugs, if I'm looking at a bug and I can't fix it, I'm like, oh, I'm going to build a colors feature.

Reijo (23:42)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Liam (23:45)
But yeah, the annotations went live, super pleased, still work in progress, there's still a few UX things I need to fix, but yeah, super super happy with it, and I'm hoping it can...

Reijo (24:00)
Nice.

Liam (24:05)
add a lot to the the work in progress hub.

You just need to make it clearer that you can do it, I think. In the previous implementation there was a way to toggle the annotations so they don't cover the whole image. So I just need to add a toggle there. And I imagine if I add that somewhere near the add a comment input, it should make it somewhat clear that they exist, right?

Reijo (24:17)
Ah, sup. Yeah.

Yeah.

Liam (24:39)
People just toggle them on and off just to see what they are or they'll click on one of the images in the comments and that will turn them on. But yeah, I think super happy with them. Hope everyone else is, I hope they get used. The other thing though, it probably doesn't necessarily apply to a lot of the stuff you post because you post videos, but I was thinking it should be possible.

Reijo (24:51)
Nice.

Yeah?

Yeah.

Liam (25:09)
if I just browsing your profile now but I was thinking how they would work for videos basically when you click it would pause the video and record the timestamp.

Reijo (25:17)
Yeah.

Yeah.

That would be extremely helpful.

Liam (25:26)
So when it comes to review, or if someone leaves an annotation on a video, you click on the comment or the image in the comment, it will go to the frame where that comment was left, which would be cool, no? And then you can maybe add a little, maybe add a little, what's it called at the bottom? A time?

Reijo (25:41)
Yeah. Yeah.

This...

Yep.

Liam (25:56)
a seeker. What is it called?

Reijo (25:58)
Scrubbery, I mean, like.

Liam (26:01)
like a scrubber, yeah, so you can see where all the annotations are and just click in between them. Timeline, timeline.

Reijo (26:05)
Yeah, timeline, timeline. This is relevant to Adobe again, because I used to use an Adobe, well, it wasn't an Adobe product then, but Adobe acquired a product called frame .io, which is that's what it does is like a review. Yeah, like a, like a,

Liam (26:24)
Mmm.

recently launched a version 4

Reijo (26:33)
what do you call it, like a collaboration feedback video tool where you can upload material and you can have a detailed way to leave feedback on it. And that has been extremely helpful when dealing with video. So having that sort of feedback option on layers would be pretty cool as well.

Liam (26:47)
Hmm.

How do you usually get your feedback from clients at the moment? What's your process? Do you just send over?

Reijo (27:06)
I just send them the asset on Slack.

Liam (27:11)
Low res.

Hmm. And that works. Well.

Reijo (27:15)
And if it, yeah, that works. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it like it's, um, I run into very detailed granular feedback very rarely. Like there, there are, there are, there have been instances where it's like, they're only talking about like the feedback is talking about like maybe three frames out of all of the, and out of the entire animation, but that happens extremely rarely.

Liam (27:28)
Mm.

Right. And at those times it's presumably not difficult to describe it. Yeah.

Reijo (27:47)
They take screenshots. Yeah, they take screenshots of the animation. Yeah.

Liam (27:51)
Green shots.

Cool. Well, again, it's just like one of those things that I'll implement just because I want to implement because it's going to be fun. And if people use it, that'd be cool. That'd be even cooler. It will definitely be a nice feature to show off, I think. And I think it's not too difficult to implement either, right? It should be. Two months later, episode.

Reijo (28:04)
You'll be awake up.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

Famous last words.

Yeah, I don't know how, for example, if I were to upload like 4k footage or above that, would that make it more like performance wise? Would it make it significantly more like laggier or perform much worse? That particular feature.

Liam (28:25)
10 overlay. I've almost spun it.

Hmm.

I don't think so because it's not really interrupting anything right it's it's only running a bit of code when you click so it's it's almost like you're just pausing the video right like any video you're just you're clicking on the pause button but at the same time you're pausing it it's it's showing the annotation thing and then yeah you're just leaving your annotation and then I don't know when when it when you finish your

Reijo (29:00)
Mm.

Okay, okay, okay.

Liam (29:22)
annotation, maybe it keeps playing. I don't know what the expected UX might be there, but can play around.

Reijo (29:29)
Yeah, yeah, I think there's options.

Liam (29:33)
So yeah there's annotations, oh was it funding that I was necessarily going to talk about? Maybe it was funding.

Reijo (29:44)
We touched on funding. Yeah. Yeah. We were talking about funding for a brief minute.

Liam (29:50)
That was before April.

Reijo (29:51)
And SuperNode's competition closed as well.

Liam (29:55)
Yes, we also had the first competition close or end. So yeah, did a little competition with my friend Tobias from Supernotes, which was fun. Just looking at it now, so yeah, had quite a few entries. Went on for about a month or so, maybe a month and a week.

Reijo (30:15)
It had a lot of entries.

Liam (30:25)
Basically you just had to, if you wanted to enter, they were looking for alternative app icons for the product super notes. But yeah, it did have quite a few entries, at least 40 or so, I think. Yeah, and winners received some cash, some layers plus subscriptions, stuff like that. Yeah, so we...

Reijo (30:33)
Yeah. Yeah.

Liam (30:54)
may do more in the future, still undecided on that fact. But yeah, I think it was a success overall. Similar to competitions though, I'm really keen to start doing challenges, which could be themed, but personally, I want to do like a 30 day challenge. Like, I mean, a lot of people...

Reijo (31:01)
Yeah.

Yeah?

Yeah?

Liam (31:21)
A lot of people have been doing these for years, basically like a daily UI challenge. But I was thinking if there was an official layers one, that could be pretty cool. Like a 30 day layers, 30 day daily challenge. I was going to say UI, but it doesn't have to be UI. It could be anything. I mean, you post pretty much daily, right Brad? Don't you? Where you try to do a daily thing on Twitter at least.

Reijo (31:24)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

That's true.

Yeah, yeah.

Liam (31:54)
And then potentially, potentially there could be a prize if you don't break the streak. Maybe not.

Reijo (32:01)
Well, yeah, but it's.

Liam (32:07)
or just do it for the sake of doing it. Don't need a prize. Scrap the prize.

Reijo (32:10)
Yeah, yeah, no, I like it because it'll be very difficult to like, how do you how do you implement measuring? Like, what do you measure there? In the in the challenge, the streak that's super easy to do just post anything. The content of it, that's more like, it's very subjective very quickly.

Liam (32:32)
Yeah, I think the only reason I said prize because I think it was typefully maybe? Have you heard of typefully? I'm pretty sure they did a 30 -day challenge and then at the end of it they gave away some free subscriptions maybe? I'm not sure, but regardless of prizes or whatever I'm still keen to...

Reijo (32:42)
Yeah.

Oh really?

Yeah.

Liam (33:02)
do a challenge because I think it could just be good for the platform if everyone is motivated and having fun designing and sharing on the platform every day.

Reijo (33:10)
Yeah, I would love to do like a, if it were like a UI challenge, I would love to do a 30 day daily UI challenge. It'll be fun, yeah.

Liam (33:22)
Oh really? You'd go back to UI would you? Start doing some UI? Oh, oh man. Well I want to do it just for that then. I want to see your UI every day.

Reijo (33:25)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I would love to. It's been a while.

Hahahaha

Yeah.

Liam (33:38)
Um, so yeah, the, uh, challenges competitions, uh, more of that to come potentially. Um, again, I deviated from funding, but, uh, yeah, currently looking to raise a little small amount, trying to keep it in the community. Uh, I think I've probably said it a lot before. Uh, I can't remember how many times I've said it on overlay, but I'm.

I'm really keen for layers to be owned by the community basically. So in the long run, I would love for just as many members as possible to own a chunk of layers. So if layers has a million shares, basically imagine if layers was public and you could just buy it, but it'll probably always be private because going public requires.

Reijo (34:31)
Yeah.

Liam (34:38)
X revenue, I think, or whatever. But getting the community involved so much that they can invest personally. And as layers grow, they also get a return or they can they can buy more shares, sell more shares.

Reijo (34:40)
Yeah.

Liam (35:02)
So I guess this first funding session is a step towards that. It's also just a little help for me because I'm still bootstrapping this thing and it's getting a bit tight. So getting some help and support that way would be very helpful on my part.

Reijo (35:11)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

In your... in your... in your...

Liam (35:26)
So.

Reijo (35:29)
Good.

Liam (35:32)
Now you go.

Reijo (35:33)
So in your Founder journey so far, has it been like you imagined it would be?

Liam (35:44)
all the hopes and dreams? Is it exactly how you imagined? Yeah, it has been very good. It still follows a lot of ups and downs that I experienced previously in my career, which is primarily client work, but I'd say much, much less

Reijo (35:46)
Yeah? Yeah?

Yeah?

Yeah. Yeah.

Liam (36:12)
amplitude, if that's the right way of phrasing it. And I think definitely as it's gone on and the money has gotten smaller or the savings have gotten smaller, it has become a bit more stressful. So that isn't helping and I don't necessarily want to be stressed by layers because it really is.

Reijo (36:13)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Liam (36:42)
a dream job in so many ways to design and build a product that is used by people. Like this is something I've wanted to do my whole life, right? And if I start, if I start not liking it or not enjoying it, I wouldn't necessarily blame layers or the product or the community. I blame something else. There must be something else that's causing that, right?

Reijo (37:10)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Liam (37:11)
So currently it is the bootstrapping, the money dwindling.

Reijo (37:15)
Yeah, that's a very, that's a very, I think that's a very healthy way of thinking about it. And also like a very, very healthy way of keeping the joy alive in the product, right? Or in, in, in building the product, it'll be, it will be very easy to emotionally connect, like the hardship you're personally going through with the product and then like mix them together and then basically.

Liam (37:40)
Yeah.

Reijo (37:44)
Kill your own... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. C 'est la vie.

Liam (37:44)
It's causing me so much pain, I'm just gonna shut it all down, Rare. I'm gonna shut it all down!

Screw everyone! I was doing it for money, I have no money! No. Whatever happens, I'm gonna keep it going no matter what. Because why would I take it down? I'll just have to figure something out to pay the server costs.

Reijo (37:55)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

What has been most surprising about the journey so far?

Liam (38:17)
I'll never get tired of the support. I obviously knew that people wanted something like this because everyone's been complaining about it for years. I have to say it is really nice getting messages of support and be like...

Reijo (38:25)
Hahaha!

Yeah.

Liam (38:45)
Yeah, this is great. Yeah, I'm using it. Keep it up. They do really help. And I think it, I think, I think basically I, it's taught me more recently that if you ever come across anyone's design work and you like it, or you love it, tell them, literally just tell them, like always.

Reijo (38:49)
Yeah, 100%. 100%.

Liam (39:14)
try and give a compliment a day and you'll make someone's day probably and you'll also feel better yourself. I mean, they say there's no such thing as selfless good deed. Don't give it to make yourself feel better necessarily, but do it just because that's what you were thinking, right? And I think if you're positive that way, you might be a bit more positive internally as well. It might make your day a bit better.

Reijo (39:30)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I totally agree with that. Totally agree with that.

Liam (39:46)
So yeah, it goes without saying, if you do find something that you love, yeah, tell them, spend a bit of effort finding them or whatever messaging them saying this is great. Love it.

Reijo (39:55)
Yeah. Yeah.

Liam (40:00)
But yeah.

In terms of the whole journey, this is just another one of those challenges to overcome, and I've no doubt we can overcome it easy.

Reijo (40:14)
Yeah, yeah. Like, it will be, I think it will be, it will be surprising to me at least, if like bootstrapping a company, bootstrapping a product of this nature wouldn't come with hardships of some sort.

Liam (40:35)
Yeah, the only thing I would say in hindsight, if you are doing something similar, I wouldn't jump into it as early as I did. I think I jumped into it because I was a bit drained from doing client work for so long. Well, so long, 10 years or whatever.

Reijo (40:53)
Yeah. Yeah.

Liam (40:59)
But realistically I probably should have done it a bit longer and waited for layers to be a bit more... profitable is the wrong word, generating a bit more revenue. So like if I was still... yeah, yeah, yeah. If I was still working now, for example, but then again, would it be possible to get it to this stage? Because it's quite a bit of work as well. Like it might be a bit more stressful having to moonlight.

Reijo (41:11)
So it's paying for itself.

Right?

Liam (41:28)
more each day. So difficult to say I guess, but hmm.

Reijo (41:35)
Yeah, like I understand what you understand what you mean. It would be like, it's a tricky thing to evaluate that in hindsight. Yeah, you could have done, could have collected more savings, could have focused more on the income of the company, et cetera. But how much would the product be behind from the point that it is now?

If you had done that, I don't know. And clearly, by the deployment schedule, you've been doing a lot of work that isn't even building the product, right? You've been doing a lot of other stuff that goes around it. So that's also something that needs to be done. And if you were to do another job at the same time as well, like being a full -time dev or doing freelance, that would be stressful.

Liam (42:08)
Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah, definitely full time. But if I was to do it again, or if I was to give any sort of advice or recommendation, I would say, yeah, have some sort of freelance gig that you can do a day a week, two a week, keeps the lights on, pays the bills, et cetera. And then the other three days, even weekends, if you're passionate, you can focus on the side project.

Reijo (42:48)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's a sensible thing to do, I think. Do as we say and not as we do.

Liam (43:06)
Um,

Yeah, but sensible is overrated, right? Dive straight in, worry about it later. That's future Liam's problem.

Reijo (43:15)
Fuck it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Liam (43:30)
But yeah, what else is new with layers? So the annotations have gone live and I guess the next one of the next things I'm hoping to get live will be this portfolio feature. So you'll be able to use your profile as

Reijo (43:51)
Nice.

Liam (43:59)
your portfolio but a bit more personably personable by basically removing all the layers UI, removing everything that's related to layers interactivity so all the actions like liking commenting that sort of stuff it will just show your profile, your avatar, full name, your bio, your

Reijo (44:03)
Nice.

Yeah.

Liam (44:28)
location etc and then it will just show your work and clicking on your work again it will just show the work itself the title and description.

Reijo (44:38)
Can we talk a bit about portfolios? What is your take on design portfolios in general? What do you think about them? What is the right way to approach them?

Liam (44:44)
Mm -hmm.

Hmm

I think Dan Petty says it best in a lot of ways. For months now he's been giving feedback on a lot of people's portfolios and he gives some very great feedback. But also in a episode of Rob Hope's podcast, Yo, he also did a...

Reijo (45:15)
Mm -hmm.

Liam (45:29)
podcast with Dan and he basically took him through designing, building a portfolio. Like if you were to design a portfolio now, Dan, what would you do? How would you design it? And just verbally describe it with me, verbally describe it to me. And on the screen, Rob edits in the portfolio design and yeah, it's really great. But, um,

Reijo (45:44)
Okay.

Okay.

Liam (45:56)
I check out that podcast, but I also agree with everything Dan says. Portfolios are great and it's great to have them, so I wouldn't necessarily avoid having one. That said, you don't necessarily need one if you're sharing your work elsewhere. But making it clear who you are, what you do, if you're available.

how available you are, making sure your work appears above the fold so you can see it immediately when you open the page.

Yeah, just basically the portfolio needs to be your work. First and foremost, like don't, don't beat around the bush with other content. Just get your work straight up in the browsers or the person viewing the site's face. Which I think by default layers does well, right? If you go on someone's profile, the work is immediately there. You can immediately start browsing someone's work.

Reijo (46:50)
That's true.

That's true. That's true.

Liam (47:09)
You also see that their name, I guess the only you also see if they're available or not. There's a message button, which is good. The only thing that might be missing is what they what their title is, but I guess you also have skills. So you kind of can kind of see what they do, but skills might be a bit too much. You might just want to a role or something. But yeah, they're not they're not.

Reijo (47:27)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Liam (47:39)
They're not completely necessary. Great to have. But if you don't have one, have one on a platform like Layers. Just post your work on Layers. Clients will want to see your work. And if they can see your work before contacting you, they probably won't contact you unless they can see your work, right? So.

Reijo (47:52)
Yeah.

That's true. That's true. I feel like it's a good, cheap way of doing it.

Liam (48:09)
But you don't have a portfolio, do you? Yeah, so you just use the platforms.

Reijo (48:10)
So you...

No, no, I don't. I just have layers and dribble. Yeah. But I also feel like, but I also feel like if I were to have a portfolio, which I'm sort of, I'm, I'm putting together like, like a concept of what the portfolio could be. I don't want it to be just designed by numbers.

Like I'm not interested in what people would expect the portfolio to be like. Like put your work above the fold, clearly state your name. I don't care about that. Like this is my portfolio. I'll do whatever the fuck I want. I don't care about design by numbers. I feel like if I'm going to make a portfolio for myself, I'm going to...

do it in a way that feels true to me. Like I'm going to do the things I want to do. If you don't like it, that's my portfolio. I don't care. It's not, it's not a client product. Like your opinion doesn't even like, that's not even in the realm of concern. It should be something that you like. And if the hiring manager finds it difficult to read tough shit, that's.

Liam (49:23)
Yes.

Mm.

Reijo (49:43)
That's on them not on me.

Liam (49:43)
Yeah, it should be. Yeah, so you're seeing it more as a labor of love. It's an expression of who you are in a lot of ways.

Reijo (49:52)
I feel like that is one of the few places you can be creatively honest. When you do client work, you cannot be totally creatively honest. You cannot wear your heart on your sleeve. You can in some ways, but not fully. When you do your portfolio, which is something, it's almost like a vehicle of creativity that is understood, that is widely understood.

Liam (49:58)
Mm.

Reijo (50:22)
That's something that you can do that's true to you without any sort of shackles around it.

Liam (50:29)
Mm.

So do you think the portfolio should demonstrate your skills and prowess more than the actual work itself?

Reijo (50:42)
I feel like it should be personal. I feel like it should be because I'm a product designer. There's a lot of product designers out there. I can do product design. There's a lot of people who can do product design. We can probably do a lot of similar work based on experience. What I'm interested in the portfolio is understanding, OK, this is what the

person does, like this is what their profession is, but I'm more interested in understanding what their tastes are like. Like express to me what your personal taste is in every which way you find it applicable to the portfolio.

Liam (51:16)
Hmm.

That's true.

That's true, which will probably be difficult to replicate in a layers portfolio, let's say.

Reijo (51:37)
Yeah, I don't think you can do it. I feel like it has to be, you have to, that I feel like that sort of thing has to start from an empty canvas. Otherwise you're already guiding yourself through some sort of like, you're already, you know, narrowing down the options that you have.

Liam (51:45)
Hmm.

Yeah, very, very true. Do you have any off the top of your heads? Do you know any portfolios that you like that you enjoy that you've remembered or no?

Reijo (52:08)
not off the top of my head, but I probably have some bookmarked. I feel like the best kind of portfolios are ones that surprise in some way. Because there's a lot of rules that you get accustomed to when looking at portfolios or even just browsing internet. There's like, okay, navigation goes on the top right.

Okay, your logo or name goes on the top left. Your title goes in the middle, et cetera, et cetera. But I feel like portfolios that either don't adhere to those rules or do something different with them, I feel like are most interesting.

Liam (52:40)
Mm.

Yep.

Yep, I'm gonna do something a little different now if I can. You know why we started recording videos in the first place, right?

Reijo (53:07)
because of the screen share.

Liam (53:09)
so we could share the flipping screen.

Reijo (53:12)
Nice!

Liam (53:15)
This is one of my favorite sites. I think it's actually changed a little.

Reijo (53:21)
Oh!

Liam (53:23)
audio. So nice in every way.

Reijo (53:24)
This is.

Yes, this is. This is beautiful.

Liam (53:32)
The work is just huge, massive, right in your face. But also if you look closer, you see the details, right? So the work is first and foremost, and then if you want to go into the actual details, you click into them. But this is an example of one of my favorite...

Reijo (53:35)
Yeah. Yeah.

Like

Yeah, like gorgeous assets.

This is what I like. Yeah. It still feels like, I feel like there's a balance between, there is some like an underlying grid or underlying guides that it's adhering to, but at the same time, it feels fresh as well. Like cleanly designed, like no bullshit, cleanly designed. That's what it feels like.

Liam (54:01)
photos.

Hmm.

so clean, but I just love that the work is so big and that's what it should be right? If you're a designer you should be showing off your work.

Reijo (54:34)
Yeah. Yeah.

There's a space for that for sure. And not only is it showing the work, just from a size perspective, it takes up a lot of the real estate on the screen. The assets themselves are good. Like the things that he's using in those places are good. Also, so many talks.

Liam (55:01)
Hmm.

Mate, he's a veteran, he's a legend.

Reijo (55:07)
Yeah, he's a veteran, yeah.

Liam (55:10)
I mean that in the experience way, Claudio. Look at that. Look at that. Those clients.

Reijo (55:11)
This is so -

But this is like this is a If I had to describe what this portfolio feels like it feels like a Swiss Army knife of portfolios Like I could feel like he could use this for the next 40 years

Liam (55:35)
army knife yeah I mean I mean it's it's slightly changed since I last went on it but yeah it still holds up I think it's it's it's more it seems to be more in line with the work he's done for opal design wise with these this overlaying nav and big background images but opal oh man what a beautiful sight

Reijo (55:51)
Yeah. Yeah.

Liam (56:05)
I'm keen to try it as well. I've not tried it yet. I don't own one, but I'm keen to buy one. Yeah, the camera.

Reijo (56:09)
Opal?

Yeah, maybe that'll solve our phone camera business problems.

Liam (56:19)
The positioning problem here. Yeah, I think the reviews have been quite... I mean this is just gorgeous man. The reviews have been quite mixed, but I'd be keen to try it myself. But this is just some crazy 3D. Love it. So gorgeous.

Reijo (56:29)
Yeah. Yeah, I've been. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is nice.

This is just, it's clean. It's clean.

Liam (56:41)
Um...

so clean.

Reijo (56:47)
And I think that's a difficult thing to achieve because you have to be very, how do you say it? Like...

You have to be, you have to cut elements very easily, you know, you, you design, but you have to, you have to take things away cruelly to make it this clean.

Liam (57:03)
You have to be cruel. Yeah.

Yes, design is about taking things away, not adding. Is that very similar to coding really?

Reijo (57:15)
Yeah. Yeah.

Breath.

Liam (57:21)
But yeah, love, love, love, Claudio's work. I kind of want to do do more now. Come on, Ray, you must know one off the top of your head. Who's your favorite 3d artist? Doesn't have to be 3d.

Reijo (57:39)
Let's check. Let's check. A good example is Peter Tarka.

Liam (57:46)
Beat it.

Reijo (57:48)
Yes, I think his portfolio does the exact same thing that you're that In the sense that what Claudios does

Look, it's right in your face.

Liam (58:01)
Just work is... yeah, bam, in your face. But you can see...

Reijo (58:05)
Bam, bam, and you can scroll and it keeps going.

Liam (58:11)
Yeah, I mean... God, it's so nice.

Reijo (58:15)
It's like getting hit in the face but in a very pleasant way.

Liam (58:23)
Yeah, you want to make a great first impression, right? And it needs to be lasting. This is also quite like a novel browsing method, just having the work dead center. Who cares if it overlaps? Doesn't matter.

Reijo (58:30)
Yeah. And it.

Right? Right?

Exactly. And he doesn't spend time on himself. He goes straight into the work like BAM! This is what I do. Here you go. This is like eight other examples of what I do. They're all fucking great. Enjoy!

Liam (58:49)
Hmm.

You're welcome.

Reijo (59:02)
You're welcome. Because it's true, like he does amazingly great work.

Liam (59:09)
Hmm.

Reijo (59:12)
And that's the...

Liam (59:13)
What would you say to designers getting into the industry then that don't have this body of work? What do they do there? Make it up?

Reijo (59:23)
Make it up.

Make it up. If you... Like if you...

You have to make some of it up. Yeah. Yeah. You have to, you have to make some of it up, I think. If you don't have that body of work, just to show what you're capable of. And then start rolling client fork into, into the, instead of spec work, instead of making it, instead of made up work. I think. What do you think?

Liam (59:33)
So just come up with some brief concepts and just smash them out.

Mm.

Mm.

Yeah, I think, I think it's the same, right? You don't really have a choice. You have to, you have to show something. And if it's not from clients, it has to be from, uh, from your imagination. You have to think, or maybe, or maybe, maybe, maybe design for the, for the, the work you run, you want, right? The companies you want to work for the, um, I think, yeah, I think a lot of people tend to.

Reijo (1:00:08)
Yeah, you have to make it up. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, if... Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, the...

Yeah.

Liam (1:00:29)
maybe do like redesigns, especially when it comes to UI product design. They'll like reimagine what they want YouTube to be. Which is an idea. Oh my, this is a... That was quite explicit. But yeah, probably, maybe not the best...

Reijo (1:00:33)
Ugh.

I feel, yeah, redesigns are an idea. But at the same time, they're like, fuck, they've been done so, so, so, so many times that I feel like, uh, if you, if you're at like the zero point, if you're at the starting point and you get to choose either I make YouTube, either I redesigned YouTube or I come up with a, with a novel idea and redesign that it's.

Liam (1:01:05)
Hmm.

Reijo (1:01:21)
It seems to me like a stupidly simple choice. Like, yeah, you design your own thing. Like come up with your own thing, commit to it fully. And then, and then that'll be your sort of made up work that you can use. And I'm, I'm at that exact same point because I love the product design work I do. I cannot show. Like when I, when I want to build a product design portfolio now, I need to make a lot of, I need to make up a lot of work.

Liam (1:01:25)
Mm -hmm. Yep.

Hmm.

Reijo (1:01:49)
because I kind of show what the things have done.

Liam (1:01:53)
Yep, yes, very true.

Reijo (1:01:57)
So I'm in the same shit.

Liam (1:02:00)
So yeah, if Raya is doing it, you do it. Alright? Everyone do what Raya does. That is the advice. I think we'll probably end it on that note. But yeah, we need to...

Reijo (1:02:07)
It's not legally binding.

Yeah, we have a very productive, very productive podcast this one.

Liam (1:02:28)
Yes, we need to start using the screen more, man. I completely forgot about it. Like, why haven't we been using it? Especially for layers updates. Oh man. But yeah, because we had, we always had ideas of potentially going through actual layers and stuff like that.

Reijo (1:02:44)
That's true, that's true. We keep forgetting.

Liam (1:02:57)
So...

Reijo (1:03:00)
Who uses light mode?

Liam (1:03:03)
Some people, Roe, I'm just trying to be trying to design for the light mode people out there, you know.

Reijo (1:03:10)
A man of two people.

Liam (1:03:14)
It's weird though because I do use dark mode system preferences, but for layers I think maybe because a lot of the work that is posted on layers currently is light. I like to see it. I think so maybe. It looks a little less suffocated maybe.

Reijo (1:03:14)
Nice.

You think it looks better light?

Wow!

Liam (1:03:40)
But this is the new annotation feature. In the session that we had yesterday, Significa leaving a lot of helpful feedback.

Reijo (1:03:45)
nice.

Were they roasting people or were they polite?

Liam (1:03:58)
What do you think, Ray? Oh man, it would be fun to have a roast session though, no? Oh man, that does sound up my alley.

Reijo (1:04:09)
Yeah. Yeah.

Liam (1:04:12)
then everyone can get involved. Yeah, we'll just have a roasting session one day.

Reijo (1:04:14)
Yeah.

Oh my god. Oh my god.

Liam (1:04:20)
Whoever leaves the best roasts gets a t -shirt.

Reijo (1:04:23)
Get some metal.

That's a good segue into merch. Have any merch planned for layers?

Liam (1:04:30)
T Flares Roaster

I'd love to have some merch. Yeah, I've played around with...

Reijo (1:04:40)
Yeah.

Liam (1:04:47)
Printful and Shopify, there is something that exists. I would love just to have merch in general, so people could support layers that way. Maybe it will happen eventually. I don't think it's necessarily a...

Reijo (1:05:06)
priority.

Liam (1:05:08)
Um

priority or a profitable venture. But I think same as same.

Reijo (1:05:16)
That is true! That's the honest answer!

Liam (1:05:25)
Well, when it comes to time and prioritizing what I'm going to do, like it would be another thing that I wouldn't necessarily get any sort of income initially. But regardless, it's similar to an app. An app requires a lot of work and I'm not sure if the return, if it'd be sustainable, but I'd still love to have one. It'd be fun, right? But yeah, we shall end it there.

Reijo (1:05:27)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Liam (1:05:55)
Again, thanks for listening. If you have any questions or feedback for either of us here, Ray or I, we've got an email which is overlay at layers .to. That's overlay at layers .to. Love to have questions, feedback. Questions would be great. We'll answer them in the podcast. Or even if you want us to give some feedback on your layer. Could do that, Ray. Some live feedback.

Reijo (1:06:20)
Submit it!

Liam (1:06:24)
recorded feedback. Yeah that'd be fun. Overlayers on every podcast platform now, podcast service, so whatever app you use, whatever service you use, if you could subscribe, rate and review, that'd be extremely helpful. And I'm Liam P McCabe on X Twitter.

Reijo (1:06:25)
Yeah.

And I'm RayoRidesOnX.

Liam (1:06:50)
And that is episode six. Thanks guys. Ciao.