Overlay

Liam (00:01)
Hello and welcome to episode number seven of the official layers podcast overlay. I'm the founder of layers, Liam.

Reijo (00:09)
and I'm a designer and illustrator, Reijo.

Liam (00:13)
Just before we get started, if you're looking to support Layers or the Overlay podcast then you can join Layers Plus today and gain access to additional features such as analytics, scheduling, profile customization and more. Overlay listeners can also get a 10 % discount off the annual plan using the code OVERLAY10. And now on with the episode. How's it going, Rui? How's your week been?

Reijo (00:37)
Not too bad. Wish I could have done a bit more, but it is what it is. How about yours?

Liam (00:44)
You weren't as productive as you wanted to be. Why? Tell me!

Reijo (00:48)
No, I had a bit of a cold I think over the weekend, a little bit earlier in the week, but it's mostly passed now I feel like.

Liam (00:53)
Oh no.

I think I've got it. I had a cold like two weeks ago and I don't think it's fully left, which is annoying. I've always had issues with with my sinuses. They always get blocked and I don't think they're fully clear at the moment, which it's not bad, but it's just annoying.

Reijo (01:08)
Yeah.

Yeah?

Well...

I suppose it'll only get worse with age, right?

Liam (01:24)
Yeah, one of those things to look forward to, right?

But yeah, what's been happening this week? On layers, what has happened in the past week? Goodness. People are using layers, holy crap.

Reijo (01:42)
Yeah.

People are using the annotations.

Yeah, yeah, they've been using those on some of my animations as well. Like they leave specific like on videos, they leave comments.

Liam (02:00)
Yeah, and we discussed last time that I was going to implement timestamps, so it would actually make sense when you use it, which I still need to do. But yeah, I'm...

Reijo (02:03)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Have you looked into that? Like how difficult do you think that is?

Liam (02:19)
I don't think it's difficult at all man. It's just yeah on click I'm showing the annotation and I just have to pause the video get the current timestamp and then add the timestamp to the comment. Bingo -bango done and then when it appears in the list on the right when you click on it it just seeks the video to the the timestamp and

Reijo (02:28)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Liam (02:47)
makes sure to pause it as well. So it should be super easy. I should get around to it.

Reijo (02:50)
Yeah.

Maybe, so like the topic for this week on Discord has been spam comments, right? Maybe a way to deal with spam comments is to only allow comments that are annotations. So no generic comments, only specific comments.

Liam (03:04)
Hmm.

Perhaps. I mean, you can still annotate nice colors.

Reijo (03:26)
That is true. That is true. But if you're dealing with like, I don't know, maybe like I assume there's a way, there's a simple way to manufacture comments, like automatically having them be annotations only, I assume makes it a little bit more difficult.

Liam (03:47)
Yeah, maybe. So yeah, what Rare is talking about is I put a tweet out the other day or a post on X asking with a screenshot of some comments on there is asking if the comments were spammy or not. Because one of the issues that designers love to complain about.

on specifically Dribbble for whatever reason, although I think they exist on most of the platforms, is that the comments can be very crappy. But like I said, the issue I think exists on all communities. But yeah, it's very difficult to determine what makes a spammy comment.

at face value. I think saying nice colors isn't necessarily bad, but seeing nice colors 100 times a day gets spammy.

Reijo (04:41)
Right?

That's something that could be a key to solving this, perhaps, is having a comment track record on a profile. And then you can start easily picking out who are the accounts leaving spam comments. If the only comments this account leaves is,

Liam (05:11)
Yep.

Reijo (05:15)
Nice colors, nice layout, nice copy, nice colors, nice layout. BAND!

Liam (05:24)
Yep, you're gone. But like from from a human point of view, like I can detect them pretty easily. Like I'll see these comments. They look a bit spammy. So I'll check out the accounts and I'll see if the accounts are like somewhat affiliated with the layer post poster. And if they are, if and it seems like they're friends, then.

Reijo (05:37)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Liam (05:52)
That's easy, right? They're just trying to like boost the post. And then if they're not in the same company or friends or whatever, and they're still there, then usually it's because they just want to boost their profile. So if they comment on every post and they're the top comment, then obviously people might click on that link. So it's a way to...

promote yourself basically.

So yeah, from a human level, it's quite easy to spot, but making a computer do it...

Reijo (06:40)
It feels wrong a little bit, right? It feels like... I agree with... I agree with that it's easy to spot them. It's easy to see the pattern. But then when you actually go and have to write the rules about how this will be addressed for a computer to then solve, that kind of feels sketchy to me. That feels like... Yeah.

Liam (06:41)
I mean...

Feels wrong.

Oh really?

Reijo (07:09)
I don't know.

Liam (07:11)
As soon as you try to fix it, it's like, oh, this is sketchy.

Reijo (07:13)
Yeah, this is kind of... right? I don't know what makes me feel queasy about it, but it feels like there's like some sort of... Yeah, right? Something is here that doesn't feel exactly right. Or like, for fuck's sake, sometimes I do want to say nice colors because the colors are nice, but I cannot say that anymore. I cannot say that because it will immediately look like spam.

Liam (07:24)
Privacy thing.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, I think, I think maybe the community just has to get used to them or...

Reijo (07:54)
Oh, so you think the train has left the station? Like this is not a solvable problem anymore? We're now in mitigation mode rather than solving mode.

Liam (08:07)
I haven't left any station. I don't know where I sit. I'm thinking basically layers has a down vote functionality and it's primarily for selected users. So if they can see that someone is gaming the popular page, then you can down vote it. And it...

basically got introduced because typically posts don't stay on number one for a good while, right? It's maybe an hour or two or a few hours, but if they're there for half a day, you know something's up.

Reijo (08:46)
Yeah. Yeah.

Liam (08:52)
And then you look into the post and the account and it's like, oh, they're just getting the friends to like it at intervals of an hour or whatever, just to ensure it stays up. I think the timing thing is the bad part in that. Cause like if you have a company and your team just likes...

the team's post, for example, there's nothing necessarily wrong with that, right? Like it does mean you get the post gets like an influx of likes over a period of time, which could be argued as not fair to the rest. But yeah, when you can tell that they're doing it purposely at different intervals and then they have another...

Reijo (09:18)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Liam (09:46)
post or two that are on the top spots and they have the top three spots then you're like well this is this isn't uh uh that great um it's not organic yeah so yeah you have to introduce something and basically the down vote was introduced um so so i brought that up because we can basically add the down vote to

Reijo (09:48)
Yeah. Yeah.

It's not organic.

But so what can you talk a little bit more about that? What does the download actually do to the account?

Liam (10:17)
It doesn't do anything to the account. Like, it's just to the layer itself.

Reijo (10:24)
just the layer itself. So it'll just push it down from a high ranking spot.

Liam (10:27)
Yeah, currently.

Yep. I mean, I did think, so I was basically thinking, oh, just adding a down vote to comments, you could do that. You could do very easily. And then, but yeah, it's still difficult. Cause you can doubt, you could down vote comments and then if they are spammy, just hide them like a lot of platforms do, they'll hide the potential spammy comments at the bottom. But that would still,

Reijo (10:46)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Liam (11:05)
be based on selected users who decide that it's spam, which for comments might be a bit more individual, but a bit more subjective.

Reijo (11:18)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Liam (11:22)
But no, nothing is recorded on the account. And I did think at one point to start addressing these accounts like gaming the system is you could have a spam rank or score for each account.

and if they are doing suspicious activity or spamming activity then they can be more leaning towards like a spam account and if they're not then they're the opposite but at the same time I was like oh that feels a bit...

Reijo (11:43)
Right.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Liam (12:02)
you were saying earlier about analyzing comments, it feels a bit sketchy. That feels a bit sketchy to me. Cause I don't, I don't want to have, I don't want every user to feel like they're subject to being a potential spam account, but.

Reijo (12:10)
Ugh.

Well, well, like I feel like, yeah, I understand. I feel I kind of feel the same. But so the problem is separating the the organic behaviors, parents from inorganic behaviors and parents. I feel like having like being able to download a layer, which is clearly being which is a subject of inorganic behavior.

is good, but I also feel like there should be like a three strike system for an account where an account collects, like you've been downloaded for something specific. Like it's not an accident that you've been downloaded. And if you keep up doing this, that will reflect on your account in some way.

Liam (13:05)
Yep.

Yeah, so there should be something actually tied to the down vote like a warning. Yeah.

Reijo (13:17)
Yeah, yeah. Let them know that, hey, you've been caught.

Liam (13:23)
Red -handed, hands up. I was just gonna see if I can bring up the poll that I did.

Reijo (13:25)
Red -handed.

What was the results for that?

Liam (13:40)
Yeah, that's what I'm trying to track. Because I remember them being, it started off quite, basically I asked, I think this was different to the, this was before the spammy comments. It was like, I think I asked the question, what should you do if you catch someone gaming the popular page basically? And I was like, the options are,

Reijo (14:04)
Yeah. Yeah.

Liam (14:07)
warn them, suspend them temporarily, or ban them permanently. And for the longest time it was it was worn, but then it seemed pretty even towards the end. I can't live and find it. How do I... it's the annoying thing with X. I just... yeah, but X doesn't just show your posts right, it shows all your reposts and...

Reijo (14:11)
Yeah. Yeah.

And...

Isn't it just on your account?

Uh. Uh.

Liam (14:38)
stuff like that and apparently I repost a lot. Okay I found it, I was just scrolling too much. Oh man, look it's incredibly even.

Reijo (14:51)
Yeah.

Liam (14:54)
I am gonna share the screen, but we have to be cautious of our audio listeners as well, Rayo, which I normally forget. Yeah, I'm just showing the poll. So I asked, what's the most appropriate action for people gaming the latest popular page? And I put warn, suspend, temp, ban, permanent, and other, and you can reply with other response. And how even is that? So it's, warn is at 36 .1%.

Reijo (15:01)
Yes.

Nice.

Liam (15:23)
suspend temporarily is at 36 .1%. So exactly the same. And then band permanent is 23 .3%. Then the other is 4 .4%. But also band is band is quite high really, to be fair, like I wouldn't like people deserve people make mistakes, right? For some things. I mean, this is quite a mild thing, right? It's

Reijo (15:26)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

What are you... I feel like this is a... You're asking a sensitive community a sensitive question, I feel like. So people have a higher tendency to react more intensely, I would say. Does that make sense?

Liam (16:08)
You dropped out, Ray. Say it again.

Reijo (16:12)
Oh, sorry. So I was saying that you're asking a sensitive community a sensitive question. This is already a touchy subject in general, I think, in other platforms as well. So they're more likely to give you a harder answer, I feel like.

Liam (16:32)
You reckon? I guess it is, it's also my bubble. It's like a design bubble. So it's very, the data, skewed.

Reijo (16:33)
I f -

That's true. That's true. But you're... Yeah, yeah. But you're asking, this is the crime, what should be the punishment? Like we've already verified that you've done something wrong. What should be the result of that wrongdoing?

Liam (16:54)
Yeah, and I basically see anyone that answered warn could potentially be trying to game the popular page. Right? Well, yeah, of course, it's like the people that are actually doing it, they're not going to vote bad permanently, are they? They're going to be like, warn, warn, warn, warn, come on everyone, vote warn.

Reijo (17:03)
Oh, I didn't even think about it like that, but yeah.

Yeah, right?

Yeah.

Liam (17:25)
So that would also skew the results, but I don't think there are many people trying to do it really. There's only been a handful so far.

Reijo (17:35)
Well, there's been enough to make you consider what the solution for that should be, or to sort of motivate you to solve this issue, or to recognize this as an issue on the platform.

Liam (17:43)
Yes.

Yes, exactly. So yeah, well, I'll be addressing that with something, potentially a down vote. But I don't know. I mean, if you go on Behance, for example, Behance comments are just like right at the bottom. So it's like, they're given so little priority and value, right?

Reijo (18:08)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's true. Behance allows you the most space for your work, I think.

Liam (18:21)
And if...

Hmm.

Yes.

Reijo (18:34)
So it's...

Liam (18:34)
Yeah, they got a full on full on case case study of you.

Reijo (18:38)
Yeah. Yeah. It's.

Liam (18:39)
Would you want that type of content flow on layers, like a complete case study option?

Reijo (18:49)
It will be interesting. I think it will be... Some people would definitely be interested in that. Some people thrive of making case studies. Good for them, I think. I don't think I would find much use of it. Maybe in the future. I don't know.

Liam (19:06)
To be honest, I don't think a lot of them are actually case studies. They're just multiple images, basically. Like, if you...

Reijo (19:15)
Like Twitter, sorry, not Twitter, Dribbble has the case study function as well, but I don't think I've ever seen a case study on Dribbble. I don't go specifically looking out for them, but I don't think I've seen one.

Liam (19:23)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, very few people actually seem to write case studies, it would seem. But I actually found one with some text on behinds. But it seems to be just a way of including multiple images, basically. Oh, and client reviews at the end.

Reijo (19:40)
It's a -

Liam (20:01)
Yeah, I don't know. I'm not completely opposed to anything really. If people were saying like, oh, can I add more text to my layers? Sure, I could work something out. I mean, most of the time it's like, oh, I want to add more images to a layer. So I should just get around to doing that really.

Reijo (20:01)
Interesting.

Yeah, it makes sense.

Yeah, I feel like having that option of having a lot of text added to a case study or a set of layers would be an interesting option. It would be definitely useful to certain, more useful to some professions than others, I think. But I don't think

think that many people will actually use it. I think a lot of people might want it. The people who will actually use it will be like a significantly small percentage of that, I think.

Liam (21:04)
Yep. Yep.

Reijo (21:06)
I don't, when I'm going on Dribbble or B -Hands or Layers, I'm not looking for like an explanation of like a 500 word essay on why this is the best, whatever the thing is. I'm looking for small sparks of inspiration. Like I'm not looking for like a huge problem. So I'm looking for something like very small and very immediate.

Liam (21:33)
Yeah.

Reijo (21:34)
But that's how I use it. That's not how anybody else uses it, I think.

Liam (21:40)
Well, it does. I think you're probably in the majority though, right? Like a lot of people are just showing want to share some kind of visual candy in a way like the work worked on worked on something that they're proud of. They want to share it off and then not necessarily that bothered about sharing about how they got to the result just that they got the result.

Reijo (21:51)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

But that doesn't mean that having that sort of case study or doing that sort of presentation work isn't... that's not useless, right? That's still very... I think that's important, that has its own specific place, I feel like, but it's not what I look for.

Liam (22:17)
No.

Yep.

Reijo (22:29)
So, eh.

Liam (22:29)
Yes, but yeah, I'm interested to hear what everyone else says if they want that sort of case study feature. I mean, the way layers is currently built is you can add multiple layers to a single layer, which basically turns it into a group, an unnamed group.

So there's ways that you can build a case study with the existing functionality. Well, you can just add text, right? Like, you just, each layer just needs a complimentary image. I mean, I could just remove the option, like images could be optional, but then you'd just be sharing text. You wouldn't really want that, but.

Reijo (23:02)
Yeah, you could add text images.

Ah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Liam (23:25)
basically you just share multiple images with complimentary text. And there have been a few accounts that have done case studies like that and they've managed to look pretty decent, I think.

Reijo (23:46)
You know what? I feel like...

The silver lining of this conversation should be case studies, I think, are underused and underrated, I feel like. Because if they're well done, it's like if they're well written, like catchily written, the imagery associated with them is also well selected. It's a great experience. Like, it's very interesting. It's...

I feel like it's an underused tool.

Liam (24:18)
Yep.

Yeah, I'm just trying to load one now. The only issue is with the current iteration of the layer page, you have the content in the right sidebar, so it kind of flows a bit less. It doesn't flow as well as when it was in a single column.

Reijo (24:38)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Liam (24:53)
which makes the reading experience a bit different, a bit more different. But if I've got, I've got an example here. Bam, bam. So I'm sharing a...

Reijo (24:54)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Liam (25:14)
case study, if you will, from an agency called Creativa. So yeah, it's like a brand update to one of the clients, I guess. But yeah, as I was saying, with the sidebar on the right, and especially because it's full screen, there's actually no way to know that there's multiple layers here, which probably needs to be fixed. I think in one design I did have it

Reijo (25:18)
Beautiful.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Liam (25:44)
not full screen, so it was like 80%. So you could basically see the next post, which I might have to, which I might have to re -implement. But yeah, so this is potentially an example of like a case study, like each, is that your microphone?

Reijo (25:45)
Curl.

Mmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh.

That's exactly the microphone I'm using.

Liam (26:07)
Yeah, so they just have multiple images and videos and then complimentary titles and text and they've they've done it in a way which just yeah almost replicates a case study.

Reijo (26:20)
They've hacked it together. Like it's, it is actually a case study.

Liam (26:23)
They've hacked it together. What do you mean, Ray? What would be the other solution?

Reijo (26:29)
And you... Because it's like, this is not like the... I don't think they think either that this is like the ideal reading experience for the case study, right?

Liam (26:42)
But that's what I'm saying. Is that just the current iteration of the design? Like should case studies just be in a single column? Is that the...

Reijo (26:43)
Yeah.

Yeah.

It would be preferable for sure, but is it worth it? I don't know. I might.

Liam (26:55)
Because that's what it was before, right? Do you remember?

It was, it was a single column for ages until I, uh, until I brought back, uh, annotations and replies because you kind of, uh, it was also because of the competition, right? So competition, you kind of wanted to see the entries, uh, as soon as you arrived on the page. So putting them in the sidebar on the right was kind of good because then you could just browse all the entries.

Reijo (27:06)
Yeah.

Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Okay.

Yes. Yes.

Liam (27:33)
And then when annotations came along, it made sense to see the annotation on the right when you posted it rather than off screen, right? So those types of functionality don't really lean towards a case study view. So if you're going to have a case study, it's almost like it would be a separate type altogether and you'd remove...

Reijo (27:42)
Yes.

Yes.

Liam (28:01)
annotations and possibly even comments, right? Unless you just put the... unless you just have comments and put them at the bottom, right? Like Behance or Dribbble.

Reijo (28:05)
Yes.

This is a good, I think this is a good example of the difficulty of doing product design, especially with the product like layers where you make one decision like, okay, let's put the sidebar here. Let's do the replies here. Let's do the annotations. But there are like ripples of ramifications that you will end up paying for like a year, two years after that.

still, which may not have been obvious at the time of release. Which is interesting, it's like a chess game.

Liam (28:55)
I think that's just product design in general, right? Like every thing, no matter how small it can be, potentially can have ramifications, like you say. As small as the like button can have serious ramifications.

Reijo (29:16)
like counter, dislike, counter, like all of those things will like, all of those things I feel like are, it sounds simple on paper, let's take it out, let's put it back or let's change it, but it has, I think, a great effect on the user, much more than the button is actually worth, I think.

Liam (29:31)
Hmm.

Yep. But yeah, aside from annotations, I've also tweaked the overall sidebar on the layer page. In the code, it's essentially called layer details plus comments. But I'm really pleased where it is now. It seems finally a lot more polished.

Yeah, basically just all the UI has been tweaked a little. So everything aligns, the UX is a bit better. It's a bit clearer. So I'm hoping, and I think since I've made the changes, people seem to be commenting more. So hopefully that's because of the changes I've made. Yeah.

Reijo (30:24)
This is, uh...

Yeah?

Nice, nice, hopefully. But I saw this on Twitter. Somebody sort of threw a rhetorical question out into the void, asking what actually is polish in product design? And you use the word polish right now, too. What do you think that is? How do you explain it?

Liam (30:56)
Mm.

Polish I think that might have been cam. Yeah, that's it. I think polish is

it's to me it's UX delights. So it's almost it's almost like you've read the user's mind. They want to be able to they want to be able to do something. And they think oh, this is how I this is how I think it should be done. And then they try it. And then it's like, Oh, yeah, I did it.

Reijo (31:18)
Yeah?

Mmm.

Interesting.

Liam (31:41)
So it's basically on the level of intuition. You want to make the interface as intuitive as possible. I think the standard answer might be all the little details and all the subtle little animations and the little delights that designers love to put in. But I think it's more on a higher level and just making it that extra bit intuitive. And it's like...

Reijo (32:07)
I totally agree with you.

Liam (32:09)
And it's like making the user feel like, oh, that's so clever. I'm glad they implemented it like that. I'm glad they thought about that. It's like one of those small things that designers love to love is when you right click on a logo, right? And it's like, download SVG. I think those things are the polish for me.

Reijo (32:17)
I totally agree with you.

Yeah, like.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and get in this VG. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's a sign of polish.

Liam (32:38)
Yeah, it's like, I wish I had thought about that. Oh, I'm glad that exists. They've read my mind. They've read my mind. This is what I want. So that that's polished to me.

Reijo (32:42)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I totally agree with you. I think the fine details like micro interactions, like small animations, like visual, visual sort of visual. Yeah, yeah, those are just tools. That's just a tool to achieve like a certain level of polish. So I think an app or a

Liam (33:01)
the embellishments.

Reijo (33:17)
Are you here? Yeah? I didn't break up?

Liam (33:22)
Yes, you dropped out again. I'm wondering if it's the Wi -Fi or is it actually just Riverside? So we use Riverside to record these and I think the way that they do it is they download the video and audio locally but obviously there's a limit to that so they upload it at the same time so I'm wondering if that's the issue. But anyway, say that again.

Reijo (33:33)
Interesting.

it's uploading at the same time.

And I don't remember. I don't remember what I said. God.

Liam (33:54)
Just for me, not the listeners. The Polish.

You were talking about polish and micro interactions.

Reijo (34:08)
Yeah, I was saying something about that. Ah, so anyways, so an app can have like all of those things. Like it can have beautiful animations, beautiful, like little touches of details when you interact with it, but not be polished. It will just look good.

Liam (34:12)
Okay, it'll come back to you.

Mm.

Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. I agree. I think I think those those little micro interactions are adding the cherry on the top, right? It's the delight. It's it's almost like the polish on the polish. It's like it's, it's like, if you if so the download SVG in the logo. So if you right click, already amazing, that is polished to me. But if you hover over the icon,

Reijo (34:42)
Yes.

Can you... yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Liam (34:58)
and the icon animates in a delightful way, or you click it and there's a nice download animation. That is the delightful bit. It's like, damn, this is polished. And oh my God, this little delightful animation is the cherry on the top.

Reijo (35:02)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Nice.

Yeah. Can you recall a particular experience with software that made you feel like, holy shit, somebody really got into my head and saw my steps before I took them?

Liam (35:37)
I can't recall instantly, but the only thing I can recall is...

video perhaps not related completely but a video from the founder of cron I think his name might be I don't want to misname him I think it might be Raphael let me let me search Raphael Shad yeah he he made a video on YouTube

believe with Gary Tan maybe about creating cron and the UX and the UI what went into the UX and UI it's actually the video is called design master class with the best designer

Reijo (36:20)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ooh.

Liam (36:30)
I've ever met. And, but it, to me, he's, it's, it's an example of that polish. Like he goes through, um, a basic, uh, drop down for like time zones. Um, and he gives an example of like, Oh, this is a Google calendars time zone or something like that.

Reijo (36:31)
That's a positive statement.

Yeah.

Liam (36:58)
time zone drop down and it's like it's it's functional it works but it doesn't feel great.

Reijo (36:59)
Mmm. Mmm -hmm.

OOF

Liam (37:15)
Can you hear the audio?

Reijo (37:17)
This was literally into my spinal cord.

Liam (37:21)
Oh wow, it does the audio as well. That's weird. I don't know. That's fine to have on the podcast, right? But anyway, he, well, I'll put it in the links, the show notes, whatever, but he just gives a masterclass on making so many tweaks to something seemingly so small that it turns it into a functional...

Reijo (37:25)
Yeah.

Liam (37:51)
element that works fine, but to a delightful element, like it makes it a pleasure to use rather than a chore to use. Which I feel a lot of software, especially maybe older software, that has lots of legacy code and UI stuff like that, most of them are a chore to use, right? But if you have the time to...

go in, polish everything, it becomes a much better experience. See, even here, he's just describing the video, he's just ensuring everything is aligned, that all the numbers are using monospace, so they're all aligned. He's using the correct m dashes and stuff like that. Just perfection. So that's...

Reijo (38:27)
Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I feel like, yeah.

Liam (38:49)
That's an example of what I can think of, but in terms of actual...

Software itself, I can't recall. I can't recall. There must be a few out there. Maybe I've just forgotten. Yourself?

Reijo (39:07)
Yeah, it's tricky because it's the bad experiences that stick with you, right? Not the good ones.

Liam (39:12)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean.

Reijo (39:17)
I feel like an analogy that I use to explain this to somebody or to try to think about this is like a kitchen knife. Like if you've used like a very basic kitchen knife, like a very regular one, it does the job exactly like as it's supposed to do, right? It cuts the tomato. Beautiful. Don't need more. However,

Liam (39:39)
Mm.

Reijo (39:44)
If you've ever had like a very good kitchen knife, like it's nicely weighted, like the grip is like exactly fits your palm, like there's exact curvature to it, how it cuts, it's very easy to maintain. And now you realize, ah, there's levels to this shit. And that's like, I feel like it's a, it's a between, and that I think is a function itself. Like it having it being aesthetically pleasing, not only is it,

doesn't work better, but it's aesthetically pleasing. That's a function as well. To just be, just have it. Everything is nice. That's a function.

Liam (40:19)
Yep.

Yep, yep, and it wouldn't be a design chat if we didn't bring up Apple or Steve Jobs or the iPhone. And I think the iPhone obviously did a lot of that as well. Like the previous phones before it, the Blackberry with the keyboards and stuff like that, they were very functional and they were great phones and they did a lot and were fun in their own ways. But then when the iPhone came out and

Reijo (40:41)
Yeah.

I sometimes miss them.

Liam (40:51)
Oh yeah, but there was just so much intuitive design behind it, even basic things like the scrollings, like how do you imagine this will work? Well, you just swipe up and it works how you'd expect.

Reijo (40:53)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Liam (41:10)
Yeah.

Reijo (41:10)
Yeah, I feel like in sort of common place tech like iPhones, AirPods, Mac, that's probably the environment where you're most likely to encounter those little delights or those little elements of polish, I think. Apple can still, I feel like, be still a bit rough around the edges sometimes, but...

Liam (41:37)
Oh yeah, definitely.

Reijo (41:39)
But there are some instances where it's like, holy shit, if you're in the ecosystem deep, like if you have all of the devices on like Apple devices, it's great. If you just have the iPhone, don't have the MacBook, then the ecosystem experience is a little bit rougher.

Liam (42:04)
Yeah, yeah. Also, there's experiences that they introduce that they kind of train their users on. And I sometimes find, oh, I wonder if I try this with this device, does it work? And it works. And then you're like, oh yeah, that's pretty magical, right? Because it's a very similar experience and it's just been transferred to another device.

Reijo (42:14)
Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

Liam (42:32)
But at the same time, yeah, when it doesn't work, it's annoying as hell. It's not frustrating. It's very frustrating. Like I have it with my watch when I want to switch to my... Because I got one of the 3G plan watches when I go running to listen to music. But to try and switch to my watch for Spotify to listen on my watch is...

Reijo (42:32)
Yeah.

It's a cr -

Yeah?

Okay.

Liam (43:01)
not smooth process, or at least I don't know. I don't know the smooth process. Like, please tell me. I think I figured it out recently though. So, but yeah, basically you've, you've got your phone and your watch and, uh, on the Spotify app, you can choose where it's playing from. You can select like your phone or your watch. And so you, you select your watch and then it tries and then 10 seconds later, it switches back to the phone. And you're like, why did you do that?

Reijo (43:03)
Why?

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Liam (43:32)
Why? Why? Why did you do that? I just I told you switch. Why? Why wouldn't you switch? Like? Exactly. It's like, it's like, why does the phone have priority? Surely the watch should have priority? Because why would you even press that button on the watch unless you meant it? But the only way I found

Reijo (43:38)
Specifically I told you to switch. It's not an accident.

Liam (43:58)
And that will happen like three or four times and I'll get angry and sometimes that happens. Sometimes that happens on my actual run. It will like stop playing from the watch and it won't connect to the watch to play from the watch. And it's like, why? What is the issue? And so I just, yeah, I swear to myself and anyone nearby, but I figured.

I figured out, I think I figured it out. If I turn my phone off and then switch the watch to use watch, it works. So it's some sort of connection where it's, yeah, if I turn my phone off, yeah.

Reijo (44:37)
What do you mean off?

Like completely like...

Liam (44:44)
completely off, which is a great experience. And then I go switch to the watch, which I go switch the watch and it's like, okay, I've got nothing else to connect to. I'll use the watch. And I'm like, ah!

Reijo (44:46)
Then it works.

Totally.

What the fuck? It has to be... It has to be some sort of a...

Liam (45:01)
But it's also like, it could just be because Spotify is the third party app, right? And Apple is trying to worsen the experience. Yeah, yeah, Apple Music probably has no problems, right? But Spotify, ugh.

Reijo (45:12)
It's Apple Music that will work!

See this yeah, I think this is the How do we say this is probably the distasteful part about being in the Apple ecosystem is that they know that you they've got you in the ecosystem and there's like slowly gaining ground very slowly, but they are gaining ground right around you competing with Spotify like App Store we have everything

Liam (45:21)
Any third party apps?

Yes.

Yes.

I mean, if Apple Music was as good as Spotify and better, I would use it, but it's just not. It's their fault. Like, just build an equivalent or better. Like...

Reijo (45:52)
Right, exactly, exactly. Exactly, right? I would have absolutely zero issues using Apple Music if it were.

Liam (46:05)
We're gonna get so much hate for that. All the Apple music lovers.

Reijo (46:07)
I don't think so. What is the - like -

It's... it's...

Liam (46:14)
You can send those to rayo at overlay dot whatever.

Reijo (46:18)
Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah. It's like, I don't think this is a point of contention. I don't think anyone thinks Apple Music is better than Spotify. It's ludicrous. Like...

Liam (46:30)
There are. Some people do, you know.

Reijo (46:35)
Yeah, yeah, well, they live in their own little interesting world, I'm sure. And there's Tidal as well.

Liam (46:42)
Maybe, oh mate, title, is that still a thing? I haven't checked out title in ages.

Reijo (46:48)
I had both Spotify and Tidal subscriptions for a long time, but I stopped using Tidal because... The software is shit. It just doesn't work as well. Yes, the quality of the music can be higher. The software is shit. Yeah. It will offer... Well, there's prerequisites to this. First, you have to have a good...

Liam (47:00)
No, really?

High fidelity music. High class.

Reijo (47:18)
hardware setup for it to actually for you to listen to the better recordings I think or to tell a difference yeah for sure but just the software shit it at least okay let me clarify it used to be shit maybe it's different now but I haven't given it another chance it's just it's buggy yeah like all ten of them

Liam (47:24)
Oh yeah?

Gonna get some title fans messaging in now as well.

Reijo (47:48)
And I used to be a title fan as well, I liked it. But it just doesn't work as well. And I don't want to put, I don't want to struggle with a music player app. That's like not why I wake up in the morning.

Liam (48:03)
Yeah, yes. Yes, I've never been a complete audiophile and I don't know if I can tell the difference. I mean, maybe if I had a decent audio system or headphones, maybe I could tell the difference. Yeah.

Reijo (48:11)
Oh, it's a deep rabbit hole.

You... No, for sure.

100%. Like, I can tell you, I have a, okay, let's say I have a sort of a beginner to mid -level amplifier, headphone amplifier with a DAC, with a signal converter, and I have a set of good headphones. You still on?

Can I continue? Okay, so, and my wife knows nothing about this, right? My wife has zero understanding of what any of this audiophile thing is. I told her, use these headphones, this device, use Tidal, pick your favorite songs, like listen to your favorite songs on the highest quality and tell me that you don't hear a difference. And she did it and she cried.

Liam (48:48)
Yep. Yes.

Reijo (49:17)
Because she was like... I'm telling you, it was like you put on glasses and you see new colors. That's the kind of a difference it makes.

Liam (49:17)
From the pressure. Oh yeah, there's more quality bro.

God, you've really sold it. You've really sold it there. I'm going to have to try now. But like...

Reijo (49:37)
It's an expensive rabbit hole.

Liam (49:40)
But yeah, that's what I'm saying. Do you need like thousands of dollars, pounds worth of audio equipment, headphones and speakers, or do you...

Reijo (49:48)
You could get a... First of all, headphones are cheaper, much cheaper than speakers. Good speakers are like tens of grams. So that's an immediate no.

Liam (49:57)
So it does. Could I tell the difference with my AirPods Max?

Reijo (50:05)
That was good shit.

Liam (50:08)
shit so no

Reijo (50:08)
Yeah. Compared to like good quality audio file equipment, I don't think any of the Apple devices will compare. What the Apple devices have a leg up on is the comfort. Like it's super easy to use.

Liam (50:28)
So what headphones would you recommend for listening to high quality audio?

Reijo (50:32)
I can send you links, but I have on my table right now, I have these which are, which is a DT1770 Pro by Bayer Dynamic, which are very nice, but they're closed back. And so they're very intense. Like if you like hard, like EDM, stuff like that, it feels like...

is going to pound in your head. But it's very... I wouldn't recommend this because there's no space for your ears. I can maybe listen to this for 45 minutes and then I'm like, I need a break. But it's very good. It's very intense. But I can send you... Yeah. I'll send you some reviews first so you can kind of start...

Liam (51:19)
Right.

You have me intrigued now.

Reijo (51:30)
getting an idea of what you're getting into. Because you're going to need headphones, you're going to need an amplifier, you're going to need a signal converter. Some of these things come packaged, but some don't. Cables, that's also going to be, can be in a...

Liam (51:34)
Hmm.

What about TV and movies? Do any streaming providers provide high quality audio?

Reijo (51:56)
This is a good question.

Liam (51:59)
Or is it just not in demand?

Reijo (52:01)
I think the problem rather is that even if they did provide you good quality audio, if you're just using the TV speakers, you wouldn't be able to fucking tell anyway, because the TV speakers are so garbage that you would need some sort of like a home cinema setup to even tell the difference, I think, because the TVs are not... I don't think that's a way to measure.

Liam (52:13)
Oh yeah, it needs your own speakers, right?

Mm.

And I mean, if you're going down that route, you might as well get a IMAX projector, get some IMAX reels in.

Reijo (52:35)
Right? This is, it only goes downhill. It's, it's like.

Liam (52:36)
I wonder if you could, do you reckon you could actually buy an IMAX reel of a film?

Reijo (52:47)
Have you seen how big those are? It's like, right?

Liam (52:49)
Oh yeah, they're huge. Well, you said cinema room, mate. It's going to be a cinema room with...

Reijo (52:54)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Why not? Fuck it. It'll be expensive, but I assume you can do it. I wonder if Christopher Nolan has originals of his movies. Yeah.

Liam (52:59)
Ehh

doubt he has a personal cinema theatre that he uses for all his IMAX productions.

Reijo (53:18)
That would be sweet. But I also like, I wonder, I wonder.

how happy he is watching movies because he's so like he does movies on the grandest scale possible and how can he turn off the sort of like the like the the critic or like the professional in his head who serves serve yeah looks at the scene and goes like

Liam (53:42)
I think he can, yeah. I think he can.

Yeah, I think you can. There's not many interviews of him discussing it, but there are one or two of him discussing like his favorite guilty pleasure films, that type of thing.

Reijo (53:59)
Oh I saw one that he likes fast and furious.

Liam (54:02)
Oh yeah.

Reijo (54:03)
Yeah, which is unexpected, but I understand it because it's like Nolan does films like Tenet and like, what was the?

Liam (54:12)
Mm.

I mean, I can name all of them. Memento, Inception, Interstellar.

Reijo (54:19)
the one with inception, right? So high intensity action. So it makes sense that he likes Fast and Furious.

Liam (54:26)
Yep.

Yeah, but he probably also likes the opposite, right? You can't... You'd want to break from all the serious stuff, I imagine. Not saying he would do a silly film, but... He prefers making the serious complex films, but maybe he enjoys consuming the stupid films. Maybe. Exactly.

Reijo (54:48)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, like boss baby or stuff like that. I don't know.

Liam (54:57)
Crikey, how did we get onto that?

Reijo (54:59)
So, yes.

Get nice headphones, get a nice amplifier, get a title subscription and hope it works.

Liam (55:12)
Yes, yes, maybe one day, maybe one day. I still need to just upgrade my basic MacBook and monitor. Fundraising, yeah, still looking for a bit of money for layers. Had a quite promising call last week, I think it was last week. Yeah, need to...

Reijo (55:16)
Yeah.

Which brings us to fundraising.

Yeah.

Liam (55:40)
spend a bit more time on it next week. So far it's looking promising. Fingers crossed. Maybe end of May.

Reijo (55:51)
Ooh! Okay. Gotta make it to end of May 1st.

Liam (55:53)
Fingers crossed. That is, that is true. Um, another boring business thing is, but, um, yeah, basically layers has been making a better money for a while now. Like ads, premium subscriptions and all that money is sitting in the bank account. So I just need to figure out how to pay myself and.

Reijo (55:59)
You

Liam (56:21)
in UK there's pay as you earn, which is basically full -time employment, which requires a bloody code. And it took me like, took them like three weeks to send me the code to set it all up. But I've got it now. So which does, which does help. So it does give me that extra month, right? Cause I can, I can pay myself a bit of cash from all the ad revenue, et cetera. So that's, that should help basically.

Reijo (56:31)
What?

Well...

Liam (56:50)
get me to end of May.

Reijo (56:52)
Yeah, yeah. If you're interested, we have a thing called here in Estonia called e -residency. I don't know if you've heard about it. But if you want to avoid dealing with the bureaucracy and taxes of the UK, you can set up your business here without actually being here or a citizen.

Liam (57:00)
Hmm?

You probably dropped out at the right point there, Raya, about to explain some sort of tax avoidance scheme.

Reijo (57:17)
Yes, that's I think that's what that's what people do is they they that's that's why the government I think that's the point of the program is to get companies into Estonia to leverage our like the infrastructure thing.

Liam (57:34)
Yeah.

leniency. Yeah, the other the other way is you can just pay yourself dividends, which which was always an option. But then if you if you go down the fundraising route, then it's it's it complicates things because basically dividends have to go to each shareholder, right? So and it has to be after a year, you declare dividends really, I mean, people who do it.

Reijo (57:44)
That's true.

Yeah.

Liam (58:07)
will take the money out typically throughout the year because the money exists they can and then they'll declare it at the end which is risky if you somehow lose the money or whatever and you can't actually declare it properly but yeah I think I didn't want to do that if I was getting shareholders basically right if I was fundraising because then

Reijo (58:09)
Yeah. Yeah.

Liam (58:36)
any amount that I paid myself in dividends, I'd have to also divide that up between the shareholders at the end of the year. So, so that company, yes, that complicated thing. So I was like, oh, just go as pay as you earn.

Reijo (58:42)
Mmm... Dividing money. No bueno.

Yeah, just give me a check, that's it.

Yeah.

Liam (58:57)
Yeah, it's going well, fingers crossed.

Reijo (59:02)
Alright, alright, that's good to hear I think.

Liam (59:05)
You think? What do you mean you think?

Reijo (59:08)
Well, I'll believe it when I see it.

Liam (59:10)
It's good for layers if it happens, right?

Reijo (59:15)
That is 100 % it's good. Also, a lot of other things can happen. Like you can get hit by a bus tomorrow.

Liam (59:21)
Hehehe

Whoa, whoa, whoa, a Porsche, a Ferrari. Yeah, and then aside from that, another thing I wanted to kind of address, which is kind of what I've been procrastinating with recently is, but it's always been on the roadmap, to be fair. I started working on posts for layers.

Reijo (59:26)
And then that's it. Yeah.

Yeah.

Liam (59:51)
So if I bring it right back to why I started layers, I wanted it to be more of a bespoke design Twitter. So a lot of people jumped ship to Twitter and they were sharing work on Twitter, but they also connecting and sharing messages and questions on Twitter. So I was like, Oh, this is great. It'd be great if there was a platform just like this, but more suited, more dedicated for designers. So it just happens that.

Reijo (59:51)
Huh?

Liam (1:00:19)
uh, Les started in a, in a way that it's a similar alternative to Dribbble and Behance, but in the long run, it was never supposed to be that. So, but recently whilst doing all the fundraising and stuff like that as a, as a break, as a break, as a break, I've just been, as a break, I've just been working. I've been working on that posts feature. Um,

Reijo (1:00:36)
As a break from work.

You do more work. Yeah. Yeah.

Liam (1:00:49)
And yeah, it's going to be interesting to see how if it integrates with the current platform and how best to do that.

Reijo (1:01:04)
It'll, it'll, yeah, yeah. We'll see, one way.

Liam (1:01:06)
Let's fight.

You're a skeptic, Rare. I can hear it.

Reijo (1:01:13)
I'm not, I'm not, I prefer a realist than skeptic. I feel like, I feel like there's a lot of like, there's a lot of when you're in design Twitter, design Twitter, there's a lot of untapped potential there for the users. Like there's a lot of, when you say something stupid or something inflammatory.

Liam (1:01:22)
Yeah.

Mm.

Reijo (1:01:40)
You can get a lot of engagement from a lot of different sort of smaller communities. Like you can get a lot of people pissed off very quickly. So I think that's going to be very hard to, that sort of rush of an engagement is going to be very hard to replicate, I feel like.

Liam (1:01:58)
Mm. Yeah, I'm not too bothered about the engagement initially. I just want the complimentary content types. I've always wanted members of the platform just to be able to ask questions or even add a poll or even share something that they found that they think was cool.

Reijo (1:02:04)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Yeah, it's in -

Liam (1:02:26)
Because you can only just post your work right at the moment. And if you were to post someone else's work, it would be stealing. But if you posted it in a way that was like, I found this awesome website by X, by XYZ, check it out. And if they're on the platform, that's even better.

Reijo (1:02:30)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yes.

Yes. Yes.

Yes. So it's like, it's like, uh, I, uh, how I now think of it is like a scratch book that goes with my portfolio layers. So like an extra piece of extra outlet for anything else that is not specifically the work I do.

Liam (1:02:55)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah, so the way I have it in my head at the moment, so there's going to be this portfolio feature soon on layers, which is basically every profile has the option to strip out all the layers UI and use their profile as their portfolio. And you'll be able to customize it and make it your own in certain ways. So, but then that...

Reijo (1:03:20)
Yeah.

Nice.

Liam (1:03:31)
that adds a slight complexity of then you have your portfolio and you have your profile on layers. And whilst the portfolio isn't necessarily tied to the platform.

in a lot of ways because there's no UI. It still kind of is. And then what does that make the profile? The profile of a platform like Layers

is used as a portfolio for a lot of people currently but it's it's really a profile of your activity on the platform right

Reijo (1:04:15)
Hmm.

That makes sense to me.

Liam (1:04:18)
Like currently there's you have likes, groups, palettes, colors, that sort of thing. It should be a page that just basically shows all your activity and then you have your portfolio that's the more official public facing check out my work kind of thing.

that's yeah and it's like how do you how do you meld the two kind of

is the challenge. Because if you want to click through to a user, will there be two links like, I want to check out this guy's profile, this lady's profile to see their activity, what they've been doing or who they follow, etc. Or another link to check out the portfolio because I'm a client, I want to see their work, I don't care about the social stuff.

Reijo (1:05:01)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Liam (1:05:23)
Maybe it will just be two links. I don't know. We'll see. We'll see.

Reijo (1:05:31)
It'll be interesting. It'll be interesting. I'm, it will be.

Liam (1:05:36)
Because the way you use it and the way a lot of designers use the platform is different to how obviously clients or people that are looking to hire designers use it, right? They want to see portfolios, they don't care about profiles, they don't care what you've liked, etc.

Reijo (1:05:45)
For sure. For sure. For sure.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. So, but I feel like, I feel like there's two categories of features. There's features that are for designers and there's features that are for clients, right? The portfolio feature that's for clients, right?

the scratch book or like the posting thing that's for designers. Do you think that, do you think there should be a balance between those two columns of features? Like you should always keep it like, yes, we make a, there's a platform for designers to mingle amongst themselves, but also it has the shell of features for...

clients to find said designers and get in touch with them as well.

Liam (1:06:56)
Um, I think there's just so much.

Reijo (1:06:58)
Which is more important?

Liam (1:07:01)
I think they're both important. I think...

I think having a portfolio that is tied to a platform such as layers is potentially very valuable. Because if you see the portfolio as the entry point to layers, for example, you're not signing up to the platform, but you're creating a portfolio using layers. You're then having all the benefits of layers. Every time you update your portfolio, people can like it on the platform.

Reijo (1:07:14)
Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Liam (1:07:38)
People can follow you on the platform. You can grow your reputation, your presence on the platform all, all while just updating your portfolio. Right. And then if, if you do want to use the platform, you can just go into the platform, start connecting with designers, messaging designers, et cetera. So it's, it's more the fact that the benefit there is so huge. It feels like it shouldn't be, it shouldn't go unnoticed, right. Rather than just having your portfolio on your domain.

Reijo (1:07:39)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Liam (1:08:08)
that's not connected to anything and it's not doing anything, you yourself have to do all the work of getting it out there, marketing it, et cetera. But it's just, yeah, how the two connect in a intuitive experience.

Reijo (1:08:10)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

I feel like I would, let's say you launch the portfolio feature next week. I wouldn't use it because it lacks certain type of social features and also customization features. I feel like if it's just like stripped away, this is just a portfolio as V1.

Liam (1:08:52)
Hmm.

Reijo (1:08:57)
I think it's good, but I feel like what I would like from it is I think I feel like I've been ruined by Bento. Like the Bento product is ruined my perception of like what I want from a portfolio because it's very like I can have like a nifty little Spotify playlist there that nobody will listen to. Like I can have some random texts there. I can have some highlight work highlights, but also a lot of general work.

A lot of customizable links, stuff like that.

Liam (1:09:28)
I mean, I'm not gonna lie, dude. I would love the layers portfolio featured to be very similar to Bento.

Reijo (1:09:38)
That's exactly what I want, right? And the best part of it is that it's auto -updating. Like, I'm posting through layers anyway, so my portfolio is always up -to -date. I don't need to mess with it. I will pick some shots out, or fuck, layers out, to highlight. Bastard. But...

Liam (1:09:41)
Yeah.

Yeah, so, yep.

You bastard. Yep. So I think, I think that's what I meant by like portfolio customization. Like initially, like you say, version one will simply just strip the UI, have a few themes that you can choose from. But then version two will add the customization, right? You'll be able to add, you'll be able to add additional pages, right? You might want to add like an about page a bit more about yourself.

Reijo (1:10:04)
Yeah.

Liam (1:10:24)
you might want to add more content. You might want to add text box for like testimonials or stuff like that. So it does. And then customizing the layout does bode a similar direction to that of Bento, right? Where you can drag things around, move things around, add different types of content and add pages. So yeah, that is basically where I see it going. And

Reijo (1:10:33)
Yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Liam (1:10:54)
Even in the long, long, long term, it could be a product in itself where it's almost like just a very intuitive web builder type thing. It could be just a different take on the current existing web builders.

Reijo (1:11:11)
Yes, the downside of this sounds to me is just the rabbit hole of features that you would need to find time to build. Because all of this sounds wonderful. If I could have Bento on layers, I would love it. I would use that as my default whatever portfolio link if I can customize it like that and keep it automatically.

Liam (1:11:25)
Mmm.

All right. It's happening, man. It's just a matter of time. You just gotta you just gotta wait, man.

Reijo (1:11:42)
That I understand, but there's like what features are you neglecting on the product to build the portfolio thing?

Liam (1:11:44)
Hehehehe

Does anything, does anything, yeah, does anything need prioritizing that much? I mean, if the, if the, if the fundraising closes, then obviously I'll have some help there. So I'll have other people that will be able to work on other features. Um, but yeah, at the same time.

Reijo (1:11:52)
There's... It's just one of you.

Yeah, yeah, that would be beautiful. Yeah.

Liam (1:12:15)
There's not necessarily a huge rush, I don't think. Maybe there is when the money comes in. You want to accelerate, but just getting to the point is enough for me. Being able to offer the bento portfolio, the...

Reijo (1:12:21)
Yeah, this perf - like -

Every day there's a new portfolio building site, I feel.

Liam (1:12:34)
Sorry you dropped again.

Reijo (1:12:35)
Sorry. I feel like every day there's a new portfolio building site I see. And some of them are like copies of Bento or building on top of the concept of Bento. And then there's like Wix and like Cargo site and stuff like that. Like there's a lot of options right now and the amount of options is only increasing. So the competition I feel like is getting fiercer and fiercer.

Liam (1:12:41)
Yep.

Mm.

Yeah, I didn't want to necessarily go down that rabbit hole, but yeah, I do have an inkling. This is almost like a side project from layers, to be honest. Yeah, I want to try and imagine what the next design UI builder would be. I think you can still, it's almost like a funnel. There's still something.

Reijo (1:13:13)
Yeah.

Ooh.

Liam (1:13:32)
that can be an even simplified version, perhaps even utilizing a lot of AI that's around these days. And I've also wanted just a completely isomorphic web builder, so that writes front end and back end, which there are a few out there these days, but they're very complex. Like I think you can simplify it so much so that a five -year -old could be

Reijo (1:13:53)
Yeah.

Liam (1:14:02)
designer build website, right?

Reijo (1:14:05)
Yeah, yeah. I've also seen... Yeah. Yeah.

Liam (1:14:07)
Especially with AI, especially with AI, like you can just prompt it like this, this is what I want. I just want a website, x, y, z, and it should just be able to do it. But yeah, that's another side project that maybe I'll work on. Yeah. Yeah.

Reijo (1:14:23)
to the side project, yeah.

Hahaha!

Liam (1:14:29)
But in the meantime, I think, yeah, as I said, the version one of portfolio and just having your portfolio connected to a platform that will help you potentially grow, I think is potentially good. Yeah. And on that, I think we shall call it a day.

Reijo (1:14:37)
Yeah. Yeah.

That's a good start, I think. Yeah, yeah.

Liam (1:14:54)
If you have any questions or feedback for us here on overlay, then please send us an email to overlay at layers .to. That's layers .to. Also overlay is now available on all your favorite podcasting app services. So if you can rate, review, subscribe, like, do all that stuff, it's, it's been incredibly helpful to Rayo and I. And I'm Liam P McCabe on X Twitter.

Reijo (1:15:20)
and I'm RayOWrites at Twitter.

Liam (1:15:25)
And that's it. Peace out. Ciao.

Reijo (1:15:28)
Bye!